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This story is another reason not to have lights in a POV. How many min.'s does is it really cut off your response time if you run lights. Arive unhurt so that the real rescue can happen.

TekRSQ says ...

I think lights and siren on a POV is firting with disaster no matter where they are responding to. But, not knowing the SOP or SOG's of different parts of the U.S. maybe it is needed.

Not for me though.

I agree here. Giving the ability to run lights and sirens on a POV is an insurance issue waiting to happen. When the POV is thought of as an "emergency vehicle" who takes over insurance coverage? The department or the POV owners policy? Many insurance companies would think of this as commercial use of a vehicle and would require another type of policy. Even though it is a POV in the use of a volunteer service they would more than likely decline a claim based on anything that happened in an "emergency" situation. You would also have to have something that defines "emergency situations". I have seen once where an accident claim was denied due to use of lights and an individual was on the way to a station for a call.

Second.... I may get ripped for this one, but I will say it as I feel it is very true. There are many people out there that just can't control themselves .... Many are younger volunteers, but there are also a few older ones that tend to play with the use of lights. This can make a department look poorly in the eyes of the public. Most still do not realize that even though they are in route to a call... they still need to obey the traffic laws. Now there are instances where some form of lighting would be helpful... When a member comes upon an accident scene and there is no traffic control. Director lights or warning flashers would be helpful, but the individual would be out of the POV and assisting in the direction of traffic till a department or LEO come on scene. I keep popup flasher cones in my vehicle just for this along with my vests and light stick.

Last year in illinois a law was passed that states any fire call, accident, etc that is on or near a roadway, the FD or Ambulance command has complete control over the said roadway.

So basically in illinois when a cop thinks he can tell us what to do we show him the bill and tell him he needs to clear the scene ;)

mhfdprobie says ...

IRISHFF36 says ...

if i could throw a spin into this thread.....

earlier mhfdprobie stated in his state of nj, they changed the law so all firefighters are considered emergency vehicles.  do y'all think that all ff's should run lights and sirens?  i'm on the fence. 

on one hand, you get to run lights/sirens.  sounds cool.

on the other,  that would mean you've got anywhere bewtween 5-20 ( based on our dept's avg) guys runnin' hot to get to the sta.  imho, this is not a good idea.

 Now In NJ we can not run sirens.  only blue lights.unless your a chief or asst. Chief. 

 

oh.  sorry for the misenterpretation.  i figured to be considered "emergency vehicle" you'd have to have a siren.

The true problem is too many career and volunteer firefighters abuse the lights and when this happens they make a large liability for the agency. Here in GA the volunteers run red on there POV. They have to follow all the regulations and obtain permission from their Chief and a permit from state patrol. The light have to be viewed 360 degrees and have an audible warning device to be used when in the emergency mode. Now in NY where I use to live only Chief officers ran emergency lights on their POV everyone else ran the blue courtesy light which is a joke. There should only be emergency lights only and only given to those that truely benefit from the lights and who can do the most in an emergency situation. The courtesy lights only cause confusion and problems. I'm sorry if this upsets any one but this is an issue that will be debated till some on get killed or kills others while running like an idiot with either courtesy or emergency lights.

I was a volunteer/part time paid FF in Rockford, IL., back in the 1960's.  Here all the police in our district knew who all the FF's were, and what they drove.  That pretty much handled it for us!

73, Paul

when i first started i was pulled over on my way to a helicopter stand-by that was toned out i was two blocks from Engine 3' quarters when i was stopped and the cop had yelled at me " to knock it off" now during the entire time that i was responding i had watched my speed ( kept it under 30 MPH) made full stops at all traffic control devices. i had just taken a Mercy Flight ground school and was ready to put what i learned into practice. then HQ comes over the radio reporting that it was NOT an emergency turns out that someone had hired a helicopter to land Santa in their back yard 16 yrs later it still burns me. for some reason the cops have a hard on against the volunteers in my city

now i wish they would start running PSAs again  about pulling over for volunteers  and emergency vehicles nothing annoys me more than a civilian who half assed pulls over and continues to travel the same direction as me or even better not even pull over and get pissed that i was behind them with my lights on  or even acknowledgeing  me. the best one yet is the passenger looking out the rear  window  several times  and the driver still continuing on his merry way 

i know that my lights  are only for courtesy  but please if you're going to pull over please pull over and STOP! 

career firefighters dont run any lights in my dept ( would be nice) i got yelled at going to a working fire by the wife of a career firefighter because i passed them on the left with my lights on and beat him to the scene
didnt make any real difference because the paid guys have all the fun. ( if you want details send me a private message)

@ soakinwet

That's not entirely accurate. In Kentucky, POV's must only conform to subsection (1) of KRS 189.920 - which is at least one (1) flashing, rotating or oscillating red light, visible from 500 feet under normal condtions. The use of a siren isn't 'required' under this law for POV's.

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/krs/189-00/920.PDF

Subsection (9) clearly states:

A personal vehicle used by a paid or volunteer firefighter, ambulance personnel, or emergency services director who is responding to an emergency shall display the lights required in subsection (1) of this section.

Sirens are purely optional and up to the individual department chief if you are allowed to run them or not.

For me emergency lights are a safety issue more than a "get out of my way" issue. I use my lights when they are ment to be used. I  use my lights depending on the call. If it's a illegal burn or grass fire then no I wont use them but it if it's a structure fire or wreck then yes I will use them. Luckly the fire and LEs work close together around here and they help one another, but there are times when you have LEs from out of town or new guys who are not aware of how things are that will pull you over. For an example, My chief was responding to a possible barn fire and responded with lights and siren. While enroute a state trooper was behind him and just followed him. But when someone got on scene and said it was a false alarm and chief turned his lights off the state boy pulled him over asking why he turned off his lights and where he was going and and blah blah.....  I think the best thing dispatch could do in a situation where there is a run and people can agree with me on this.... is when there is a run, dispatch can alert LE and other emergency crews that there is a run, so that way you dont have cops pulling you over asking you where you're going and what you're doing.... Just a heads up to them can save alot of trouble.... just my opinion.

soakinwet says ...

In the state of Kentucky, running code 3 is the same in a pov as in an apperatus, however, there is a clause in there that states if you go code 3, you must remain code 3 all the way to the scene unless signal 8. No emergency responder is to travel with lights only, lights must be accompanied with siren.                           code 3= lights and siren                   signal 8= disregard.

Yup, that is the law in Kentucky. You must have lights and Siren and must be seen 360 degrees. Now i havent heard about once running signal 9 that you cant run down to non signal 9. Now i have and so have many others on the dept have. Like if we were going to a call that ended up being exaggerated and it was a non signal 9 run then yeah it wouldnt make much since to keep responding emergency.

In my opinion the firefighter, regardless of the law from state to state, was doing what was safe and that's our main goal...(to keep people safe), If he had pushed someone out in that intersection and they got creamed, guess who would have been in the wrong??!! The Fireman!  The Officers should know that, which leads me to believe this was either a young officer throwing his weight around and not sure of the law, Or an officer that already has something against the fire department. One or the other. The reason I say that is we have had both problems here before...Now (for the most part) every ones on the same page, and we have a great working relationship with the PD. But I think things like this happen every where from time to time...I would just let it go, and if it continued to happen address it with the chief.

soakinwet says ...

You may be correct, thank you. We are told at both my departments that if you use lights, you must run siren. However, look under your classifications of an "Emergency Vehicle" it states pov's are under this class then states the rules for code 3. I guess it's up to the attorney's to tell us what to do! LOL

Yeah, it's a little cloudy. The trick is to read it carefully, when referring to POV's as emergency vehicles it only states that they conform to the "lights" requirement of subsection 1. But there's no law against it, it's purely department to department.